Dear Kenton (Varda https://github.com/kentonv founder of SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/, Norman (Feske https://github.com/nfeskefounder of genode-labs.com http://genode.org/
and Fellow Genodians...
Given Kenton's concern for security in SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/.. and that it's unlikely that Linux, with it's humongous monolithic kernel, will ever deliver anything that resembles real security..
.. so I'm wondering if it might be a good match to look at running SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/ severs within the Genode OS http://genode.org/ ?
To further fill out a possible vision: I just ordered a couple of Pine_64, Quadcore ARM64 boards https://www.pine64.com/ (with 2GB of ram)..
I am currently bringing up the code for Social Decision System kernel based upon the Groves-Clarke Mechanism http://www.econ.ucsb.edu/~tedb/Courses/UCSBpf/pflectures/groves.pdf, which is essentially the ideal when it comes to Strategic Voting Game Theoretic Mechanism Design http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~parkes/pubs/ch2.pdf.. while the Python / C++11 code is still in an embryonic state... the underlying theory for how this Game Theoretic solver would operate is fairly far along.. The plan is to open source this solver code, once it passes a full set of included cross validation unit tests. I have been looking at how this Groves-Clarke Mechanism http://www.econ.ucsb.edu/~tedb/Courses/UCSBpf/pflectures/groves.pdf solver can be deployed across a network, to permit this algorithm to scale up to tackle larger problems in Information / Game Social Choice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_choice_theory theory. (i.e, the longer term direction of our democracy)...
I was encouraged to find Kenton's 2nd generation work Cap'n-proto https://capnproto.org/ which I gather provides some of SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/'s core network functionality... a clear advance in the state of networked system affairs... I also have taken notice of Genode's Server framework http://genode.org/documentation/api/base_index#Inter-process_communication.. and I would like to leverage the advanced perspectives of both, as I construct the network services layer that will underlie this computer assisted support of a truly democratic Social Decision system.
my wish list is as follows: 1. Genode might somday run on ARMv8 (64bit)... It would be great if the Pine_64 would eventualy run Genode right out of the box..
2.Cap'n-proto https://capnproto.org/ might be supported within the Genode ecosystem... and that a collaboration between Kenton and Norman... might end up yielding the nicest Client / Server framework / protocol stack the world might have the privilege to enjoy.
3. That people with significant technical vision and influence, will see the ultimate level of creativity that will be leveraged if SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/ and genode-labs.com http://genode.org/ would be provided with real financial support for striving towards the inter-operation of these significant advancements of a better foundation for network based computation.
4. That SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/'s open source code https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm might also run eventually on the Pine_64 https://www.pine64.com/, within Genode OS http://genode.org/, such that the Trusted Computing Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_computing_base of SandStorm https://sandstorm.io/'s personal sever system would be further reduced..
5.. That the release of an open source network based (Information/Game Theoretic) Social Decision system kernel, will inspire many to dream about the very bright future that our truly democratic society will begin to explore.
I thus close, requesting that many may choose to support the vision that is already well underway in the implementations of both SandStorm https://sandstorm.io/ the Genode OS http://genode.org/,.. and that such a collaboration will yield a close to ideal foundation upon which this advanced, Information/Game Theoretic Social Design systems might then flourish..
With the greatest of respect for those who would help pull these pieces together. your's Sincerely Peter (SaxMan) Lindener.
-----------
Hi all,
From a brief look at Genode, it seems it and Sandstorm have a lot in common
at an abstract level. We're both building capability systems, and we're both aiming to solve security an the platform level so that apps don't have to think about it.
Practically speaking, though, Sandstorm applications currently expect a Linux ABI (including most common syscalls), which probably means that making Sandstorm run directly on top of Genode would be a complicated project. I would love to see Sandstorm running on a better kernel than Linux someday, but it's going to be tricky.
In the shorter term, the way to achieve interoperability between the systems would be to define some sort of a bridge between Cap'n Proto and Genode's RPC -- or maybe adopt Cap'n Proto as the RPC system in Genode, if that is still possible. If we can all agree on a capability transport protocol then it becomes a lot easier to gradually move software into purer systems. (Note that Cap'n Proto is based on CapTP with direct input from Mark Miller. But, compared to CapTP, Cap'n Proto is much more efficient to encode/decode.)
-Kenton
On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 1:13 PM, Peter Lindener <lindener.peter@...9...> wrote:
Dear Kenton (Varda https://github.com/kentonv founder of SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/, Norman (Feske https://github.com/nfeskefounder of genode-labs.com http://genode.org/
and Fellow Genodians...Given Kenton's concern for security in SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/.. and that it's unlikely that Linux, with it's humongous monolithic kernel, will ever deliver anything that resembles real security..
.. so I'm wondering if it might be a good match to look at running SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/ severs within the Genode OS http://genode.org/ ?
To further fill out a possible vision: I just ordered a couple of Pine_64, Quadcore ARM64 boards https://www.pine64.com/ (with 2GB of ram)..
I am currently bringing up the code for Social Decision System kernel based upon the Groves-Clarke Mechanism http://www.econ.ucsb.edu/~tedb/Courses/UCSBpf/pflectures/groves.pdf, which is essentially the ideal when it comes to Strategic Voting Game Theoretic Mechanism Design http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~parkes/pubs/ch2.pdf.. while the Python / C++11 code is still in an embryonic state... the underlying theory for how this Game Theoretic solver would operate is fairly far along.. The plan is to open source this solver code, once it passes a full set of included cross validation unit tests. I have been looking at how this Groves-Clarke Mechanism http://www.econ.ucsb.edu/~tedb/Courses/UCSBpf/pflectures/groves.pdf solver can be deployed across a network, to permit this algorithm to scale up to tackle larger problems in Information / Game Social Choice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_choice_theory theory. (i.e, the longer term direction of our democracy)...
I was encouraged to find Kenton's 2nd generation work Cap'n-protohttps://capnproto.org/ which I gather provides some of SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/'s core network functionality... a clear advance in the state of networked system affairs... I also have taken notice of Genode's Server framework http://genode.org/documentation/api/base_index#Inter-process_communication.. and I would like to leverage the advanced perspectives of both, as I construct the network services layer that will underlie this computer assisted support of a truly democratic Social Decision system.
my wish list is as follows:
- Genode might somday run on ARMv8 (64bit)... It would be great if the
Pine_64 would eventualy run Genode right out of the box..
2.Cap'n-proto https://capnproto.org/ might be supported within the Genode ecosystem... and that a collaboration between Kenton and Norman... might end up yielding the nicest Client / Server framework / protocol stack the world might have the privilege to enjoy.
- That people with significant technical vision and influence, will see
the ultimate level of creativity that will be leveraged if SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/ and genode-labs.com http://genode.org/ would be provided with real financial support for striving towards the inter-operation of these significant advancements of a better foundation for network based computation.
- That SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/'s open source code
https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm might also run eventually on the Pine_64 https://www.pine64.com/, within Genode OS http://genode.org/, such that the Trusted Computing Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_computing_base of SandStorm https://sandstorm.io/'s personal sever system would be further reduced..
5.. That the release of an open source network based (Information/Game Theoretic) Social Decision system kernel, will inspire many to dream about the very bright future that our truly democratic society will begin to explore.
I thus close, requesting that many may choose to support the vision that is already well underway in the implementations of both SandStorm https://sandstorm.io/ the Genode OS http://genode.org/,.. and that such a collaboration will yield a close to ideal foundation upon which this advanced, Information/Game Theoretic Social Design systems might then flourish..
With the greatest of respect for those who would help pull these pieces together. your's Sincerely Peter (SaxMan) Lindener.
Dear Kenton, Norman, and fellow Genodians-
Good to hear that things are beginning to work well in Sandstorm Land.. Norman and others at Genode Labs, have already brought up Virtual_Box under Genode, so perhaps, one might be able to alreay run a SandStorm server within Genode's Virual_Box ? ... I take it, that Genode's bridging of Virtual_Box's network service should already be enough to do the trick on the server side.. Genode also already supports QT5, but I gather a Genode customized Linux ABI layer may still be a ways off (Norman?)..
It would be great if Genode were to adopt Capt'n_Proto.. as part of it's next Gen RPC support... but my hunch is that both might learn a few tricks from the other... ..so I'm hopping that the Technical exchange between the teams at Genode Labs and Sandstorm turns out to be a gold mine for architecting the next generation of significant innovation in both.
-Peter (SaxMan) Lindener.. [Advanced Voting System Theorist]
On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 8:51 PM, Kenton Varda <kenton@...403...> wrote:
Hi all,
From a brief look at Genode, it seems it and Sandstorm have a lot in common at an abstract level. We're both building capability systems, and we're both aiming to solve security an the platform level so that apps don't have to think about it.
Practically speaking, though, Sandstorm applications currently expect a Linux ABI (including most common syscalls), which probably means that making Sandstorm run directly on top of Genode would be a complicated project. I would love to see Sandstorm running on a better kernel than Linux someday, but it's going to be tricky.
In the shorter term, the way to achieve interoperability between the systems would be to define some sort of a bridge between Cap'n Proto and Genode's RPC -- or maybe adopt Cap'n Proto as the RPC system in Genode, if that is still possible. If we can all agree on a capability transport protocol then it becomes a lot easier to gradually move software into purer systems. (Note that Cap'n Proto is based on CapTP with direct input from Mark Miller. But, compared to CapTP, Cap'n Proto is much more efficient to encode/decode.)
-Kenton
On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 1:13 PM, Peter Lindener <lindener.peter@...9...> wrote:
Dear Kenton (Varda https://github.com/kentonv founder of SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/, Norman (Feske https://github.com/nfeskefounder of genode-labs.com http://genode.org/
and Fellow Genodians...Given Kenton's concern for security in SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/.. and that it's unlikely that Linux, with it's humongous monolithic kernel, will ever deliver anything that resembles real security..
.. so I'm wondering if it might be a good match to look at running SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/ severs within the Genode OS http://genode.org/ ?
To further fill out a possible vision: I just ordered a couple of Pine_64, Quadcore ARM64 boards https://www.pine64.com/ (with 2GB of ram)..
I am currently bringing up the code for Social Decision System kernel based upon the Groves-Clarke Mechanism http://www.econ.ucsb.edu/~tedb/Courses/UCSBpf/pflectures/groves.pdf, which is essentially the ideal when it comes to Strategic Voting Game Theoretic Mechanism Design http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~parkes/pubs/ch2.pdf.. while the Python / C++11 code is still in an embryonic state... the underlying theory for how this Game Theoretic solver would operate is fairly far along.. The plan is to open source this solver code, once it passes a full set of included cross validation unit tests. I have been looking at how this Groves-Clarke Mechanism http://www.econ.ucsb.edu/~tedb/Courses/UCSBpf/pflectures/groves.pdf solver can be deployed across a network, to permit this algorithm to scale up to tackle larger problems in Information / Game Social Choice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_choice_theory theory. (i.e, the longer term direction of our democracy)...
I was encouraged to find Kenton's 2nd generation work Cap'n-protohttps://capnproto.org/ which I gather provides some of SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/'s core network functionality... a clear advance in the state of networked system affairs... I also have taken notice of Genode's Server framework http://genode.org/documentation/api/base_index#Inter-process_communication.. and I would like to leverage the advanced perspectives of both, as I construct the network services layer that will underlie this computer assisted support of a truly democratic Social Decision system.
my wish list is as follows:
- Genode might somday run on ARMv8 (64bit)... It would be great if the
Pine_64 would eventualy run Genode right out of the box..
2.Cap'n-proto https://capnproto.org/ might be supported within the Genode ecosystem... and that a collaboration between Kenton and Norman... might end up yielding the nicest Client / Server framework / protocol stack the world might have the privilege to enjoy.
- That people with significant technical vision and influence, will see
the ultimate level of creativity that will be leveraged if SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/ and genode-labs.com http://genode.org/ would be provided with real financial support for striving towards the inter-operation of these significant advancements of a better foundation for network based computation.
- That SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/'s open source code
https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm might also run eventually on the Pine_64 https://www.pine64.com/, within Genode OS http://genode.org/, such that the Trusted Computing Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_computing_base of SandStorm https://sandstorm.io/'s personal sever system would be further reduced..
5.. That the release of an open source network based (Information/Game Theoretic) Social Decision system kernel, will inspire many to dream about the very bright future that our truly democratic society will begin to explore.
I thus close, requesting that many may choose to support the vision that is already well underway in the implementations of both SandStorm https://sandstorm.io/ the Genode OS http://genode.org/,.. and that such a collaboration will yield a close to ideal foundation upon which this advanced, Information/Game Theoretic Social Design systems might then flourish..
With the greatest of respect for those who would help pull these pieces together. your's Sincerely Peter (SaxMan) Lindener.
Hello Peter,
your enthusiasm about our projects is great to see.
Admittedly, I feel a bit uneasy about being urged to deliver a statement about how both projects relate to each other. As I am not proficient in the domain of web applications, an assessment from my side would be shallow at best.
When I first stumbled upon Standstorm (on Hacker News), I could not spot an obvious connection between Sandstorm and Genode. And still, I'm somehow lacking the imagination to see it. Granted, both projects facilitate capability-based security. But they are seemingly based on different premises (i.e., with respect to the reliance on a monolithic OS) and address different domains (web applications vs. OS services).
Good to hear that things are beginning to work well in Sandstorm Land.. Norman and others at Genode Labs, have already brought up Virtual_Box under Genode, so perhaps, one might be able to alreay run a SandStorm server within Genode's Virual_Box ? ...
Sure, it is possible to run a guest OS on top of Genode. But what would be the benefit for Sandstorm users?
It would be great if Genode were to adopt Capt'n_Proto.. as part of it's next Gen RPC support... but my hunch is that both might learn a few tricks from the other...
On Genode, we don't delegate capabilities over the network. In your previous email, you mentioned Genode's "Server API" in the context of Capt'n'Proto. The ambiguous terminology may misguided you a bit. Our server API is not related to networking. In the context of Genode, a server is simply a software component living in a dedicated address space (think of a process on Unix) that provides a service to another software component running on the same machine.
..so I'm hopping that the Technical exchange between the teams at Genode Labs and Sandstorm turns out to be a gold mine for architecting the next generation of significant innovation in both.
You obviously see opportunities worth exploring. I encourage you to get your hands dirty, e.g., by building a prototype. Once someone like you who has a natural interest in both projects steps up and pursues the actual integration work, your vision may become more tangible to all of us.
Cheers Norman
Hi Norman-
you wrote: "*Sure, it is possible to run a guest OS on top of Genode. But what would* *be the benefit for Sandstorm users?*"
to clarify, here, I was suggesting that Kenton might want to consider running SandStorm UNDER Genode, potentially providing a development path towards better security for SandStorm.io in the longer run... Norman I'm not sure why you would see the value that Genode would bring to SandStorm's longer term growth path... You certainly have put in the effort.. to make Genode a great security oriented foundation upon which to build.. I'm sure Kenton see's the real security concerns surrounding the all to large TCB of Linux, even after Kenton's team as whittled the Linux Kernel down a bit.
Once Sandstorm is running UNDER the Genode OS, I would gather that one would utilize the opportunity to incrementally migrate part of Snadstorm's security orientated service infrastructure to run under the Genode API, without relying on the Linux Kernel as part of it's fully trusted code base..
Norman I take encouragement from your suggestion that I "*get **your hands dirty, e.g., by building a prototype*", but then perhaps you have overlooked the note that I sent that started this thread.. .. I'm already in the thick of it, But in all honesty, I really don't want to be put in the position of having to pick which platform to use during early development.. That is: If you want Genode to claim center stage as THE security orientated OS to build our future on... Working with Kenton and his team might be just the way to help make it happen... That is what I am asking... My hunch is that if Kenton...ends up liking what he see's in Genode's underlying design.. he will Likelty have good things to say to other's who might see the wisdom in further financial support for Genode Labs... (ie. a potential contract to help address the security oriented aspects of Sandstorm's longer term development path...
As for my own (rather significant) in the computational aspects of Information/Game Theoretic Social Decision Systems theory... I will continue to do most of my work in Python and C++, while doing my best to avoid counting on much from the underlying target platform, that is... until I can see that both Genode and Sandstorm..are doing well enough that the longer term development of both is a sure bet (I think the odds are good) in the longer run, you have to admit it is about sharing some vision about development directions. It is fairly likely, that Capt'n Proto will come into the picture as the more demanding computations in my code (Strategic VnM ranked Ballot Tallying) scale up via network distributed computation..
My hunch is that most people would not take kindly to nation states (surveilling the (supposedly privet, personal) input data of such a system.. and thus I take the need for security the system that will ultimately run this code... For this reason, I am doing my best to encourage SandStorm.io and Genode Labs to consider the benefits of working together... I.e... My code, will need what both combined together would offer...
To this end... I write both suggesting a dialog as to how these systems could grow in the same directions.. That Kenton, might give some thought with the support of Genode Labs, as to how Sandstorm.io, over time could further secure its TCB via a migration path where Genode's API would become fairly easy to assess... I also see that Capt'n Proto, might bring about some real value to the Genode OS... and yes, when I get the chance, I will see about what it might take to port Capt'n Proto to Genode... but in all honesty... I rather that the financial minds supporting SandStorm.io.. might see the wisdom in the security orientated migration path for SandStorm... so hopefully I can keep my own focus on the Game Theoretic aspects of the Social Decision systems problem...
all the best
-Peter (SaxMan) Lindener
On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 1:44 AM, Norman Feske <norman.feske@...1...> wrote:
Hello Peter,
your enthusiasm about our projects is great to see.
Admittedly, I feel a bit uneasy about being urged to deliver a statement about how both projects relate to each other. As I am not proficient in the domain of web applications, an assessment from my side would be shallow at best.
When I first stumbled upon Standstorm (on Hacker News), I could not spot an obvious connection between Sandstorm and Genode. And still, I'm somehow lacking the imagination to see it. Granted, both projects facilitate capability-based security. But they are seemingly based on different premises (i.e., with respect to the reliance on a monolithic OS) and address different domains (web applications vs. OS services).
Good to hear that things are beginning to work well in Sandstorm
Land..
Norman and others at Genode Labs, have already brought up Virtual_Box under Genode, so perhaps, one might be able to alreay run a SandStorm server within Genode's Virual_Box ? ...
Sure, it is possible to run a guest OS on top of Genode. But what would be the benefit for Sandstorm users?
It would be great if Genode were to adopt Capt'n_Proto.. as part of it's next Gen RPC support... but my hunch is that both might learn a few tricks from the other...
On Genode, we don't delegate capabilities over the network. In your previous email, you mentioned Genode's "Server API" in the context of Capt'n'Proto. The ambiguous terminology may misguided you a bit. Our server API is not related to networking. In the context of Genode, a server is simply a software component living in a dedicated address space (think of a process on Unix) that provides a service to another software component running on the same machine.
..so I'm hopping that the Technical exchange between the teams at Genode Labs and Sandstorm turns out to be a gold mine for architecting the next generation of significant innovation in both.
You obviously see opportunities worth exploring. I encourage you to get your hands dirty, e.g., by building a prototype. Once someone like you who has a natural interest in both projects steps up and pursues the actual integration work, your vision may become more tangible to all of us.
Cheers Norman
-- Dr.-Ing. Norman Feske Genode Labs
http://www.genode-labs.com · http://genode.org
Genode Labs GmbH · Amtsgericht Dresden · HRB 28424 · Sitz Dresden Geschäftsführer: Dr.-Ing. Norman Feske, Christian Helmuth
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Kenton Varda -
Norman Feske -
Peter Lindener