Dear Kenton, Norman, and fellow Genodians-
Good to hear that things are beginning to work well in Sandstorm Land.. Norman and others at Genode Labs, have already brought up Virtual_Box under Genode, so perhaps, one might be able to alreay run a SandStorm server within Genode's Virual_Box ? ... I take it, that Genode's bridging of Virtual_Box's network service should already be enough to do the trick on the server side.. Genode also already supports QT5, but I gather a Genode customized Linux ABI layer may still be a ways off (Norman?)..
It would be great if Genode were to adopt Capt'n_Proto.. as part of it's next Gen RPC support... but my hunch is that both might learn a few tricks from the other... ..so I'm hopping that the Technical exchange between the teams at Genode Labs and Sandstorm turns out to be a gold mine for architecting the next generation of significant innovation in both.
-Peter (SaxMan) Lindener.. [Advanced Voting System Theorist]
On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 8:51 PM, Kenton Varda <kenton@...403...> wrote:
Hi all,
From a brief look at Genode, it seems it and Sandstorm have a lot in common at an abstract level. We're both building capability systems, and we're both aiming to solve security an the platform level so that apps don't have to think about it.
Practically speaking, though, Sandstorm applications currently expect a Linux ABI (including most common syscalls), which probably means that making Sandstorm run directly on top of Genode would be a complicated project. I would love to see Sandstorm running on a better kernel than Linux someday, but it's going to be tricky.
In the shorter term, the way to achieve interoperability between the systems would be to define some sort of a bridge between Cap'n Proto and Genode's RPC -- or maybe adopt Cap'n Proto as the RPC system in Genode, if that is still possible. If we can all agree on a capability transport protocol then it becomes a lot easier to gradually move software into purer systems. (Note that Cap'n Proto is based on CapTP with direct input from Mark Miller. But, compared to CapTP, Cap'n Proto is much more efficient to encode/decode.)
-Kenton
On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 1:13 PM, Peter Lindener <lindener.peter@...9...> wrote:
Dear Kenton (Varda https://github.com/kentonv founder of SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/, Norman (Feske https://github.com/nfeskefounder of genode-labs.com http://genode.org/
and Fellow Genodians...Given Kenton's concern for security in SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/.. and that it's unlikely that Linux, with it's humongous monolithic kernel, will ever deliver anything that resembles real security..
.. so I'm wondering if it might be a good match to look at running SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/ severs within the Genode OS http://genode.org/ ?
To further fill out a possible vision: I just ordered a couple of Pine_64, Quadcore ARM64 boards https://www.pine64.com/ (with 2GB of ram)..
I am currently bringing up the code for Social Decision System kernel based upon the Groves-Clarke Mechanism http://www.econ.ucsb.edu/~tedb/Courses/UCSBpf/pflectures/groves.pdf, which is essentially the ideal when it comes to Strategic Voting Game Theoretic Mechanism Design http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~parkes/pubs/ch2.pdf.. while the Python / C++11 code is still in an embryonic state... the underlying theory for how this Game Theoretic solver would operate is fairly far along.. The plan is to open source this solver code, once it passes a full set of included cross validation unit tests. I have been looking at how this Groves-Clarke Mechanism http://www.econ.ucsb.edu/~tedb/Courses/UCSBpf/pflectures/groves.pdf solver can be deployed across a network, to permit this algorithm to scale up to tackle larger problems in Information / Game Social Choice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_choice_theory theory. (i.e, the longer term direction of our democracy)...
I was encouraged to find Kenton's 2nd generation work Cap'n-protohttps://capnproto.org/ which I gather provides some of SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/'s core network functionality... a clear advance in the state of networked system affairs... I also have taken notice of Genode's Server framework http://genode.org/documentation/api/base_index#Inter-process_communication.. and I would like to leverage the advanced perspectives of both, as I construct the network services layer that will underlie this computer assisted support of a truly democratic Social Decision system.
my wish list is as follows:
- Genode might somday run on ARMv8 (64bit)... It would be great if the
Pine_64 would eventualy run Genode right out of the box..
2.Cap'n-proto https://capnproto.org/ might be supported within the Genode ecosystem... and that a collaboration between Kenton and Norman... might end up yielding the nicest Client / Server framework / protocol stack the world might have the privilege to enjoy.
- That people with significant technical vision and influence, will see
the ultimate level of creativity that will be leveraged if SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/ and genode-labs.com http://genode.org/ would be provided with real financial support for striving towards the inter-operation of these significant advancements of a better foundation for network based computation.
- That SandStorm.io https://sandstorm.io/'s open source code
https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm might also run eventually on the Pine_64 https://www.pine64.com/, within Genode OS http://genode.org/, such that the Trusted Computing Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_computing_base of SandStorm https://sandstorm.io/'s personal sever system would be further reduced..
5.. That the release of an open source network based (Information/Game Theoretic) Social Decision system kernel, will inspire many to dream about the very bright future that our truly democratic society will begin to explore.
I thus close, requesting that many may choose to support the vision that is already well underway in the implementations of both SandStorm https://sandstorm.io/ the Genode OS http://genode.org/,.. and that such a collaboration will yield a close to ideal foundation upon which this advanced, Information/Game Theoretic Social Design systems might then flourish..
With the greatest of respect for those who would help pull these pieces together. your's Sincerely Peter (SaxMan) Lindener.